Franster I did answer your question about the Creation of Evil. But evidently it disappeared overnight. Not sure if it got deleted. Nonetheless, before this gets deleted, let me reiterate, you're confusing evil as in sinning and evil as in affliction and punishment. Evil is an act of sin, which is against God Himself. How can God create sin against Himself? Which leads to affliction and punishment, which is God’s just way of. Sin leads to death. Whether on earth or in the afer-life, God repay disobedience justly with affliction and punishment. The creation of evil, by God, is His ultimate way of dealing with rebellious souls. In Isaiah God was declaring His power and control over everything. He’s Loving, Sovereign, and feared. God cannot create or commit sin. I had summed it up better in my previous post, but I guess, somehow it got deleted. And I know I posted it, because I saw post time of 0107am 4/16.

Just now I posted the above response and it will not post. So I had to respond this way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2009 06:09PM by shine.

Shine, I don't think frankster posed the question to get a stock answer, such as you have given, but more to stimulate dialogue outside the box - my interpretation anyway. It is fruitless to reason with people who think there is a God who treats his creation in the same way they treat their children viz "God repay disobedience justly with affliction and punishment". Sounds to me like the slavemasters whip taught well and the lessons repeated from generation to generation have been relayed as acts of God. Do not for one minute believe that any almighty power would be so insecure as to need to hold power over beings by 'dealing' with them in punitive ways. If Paul got one thing right it was in his letter to the corinthians. The greatest of all attributes is love, and that is the ONLY place any God comes from and as such 'punishment' is out of the question. The only punishment we get is through our own minds and actions. Love is always waiting patiently to be acknowledged and to direct our path. When we come from a place of love there is no wrong or evil, ergo "God" does no wrong or evil. Which makes your other statement: "The creation of evil, by God, is His ultimate way of dealing with rebellious souls" another reflection of how humans deal with humans.

rasslisa, the stock answer came by means of not being able to see my posting and I eventually sent more than one posts before realizing there's a glitch with this network. rasslisa, don't get God twisted by fitting Him into your little world. God is loving, but at the same time He'll punish those who don't worship Him or desire to rebel against His word. We are God's children and God will punish us whenever we follow our own lustful or rebellious desires...research biblical history with passed nations, leaders, or individuals. Don't get God twisted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2009 01:20PM by shine.

It is a pleasure to read your words once again rasslisa.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

shine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Franster I did answer your question about the
> Creation of Evil. But evidently it disappeared
> overnight. Not sure if it got deleted.
> Nonetheless, before this gets deleted, let me
> reiterate, you're confusing evil as in sinning
> and evil as in affliction and punishment. Evil is
> an act of sin, which is against God Himself. How
> can God create sin against Himself? Which leads to
> affliction and punishment, which is God’s just way
> of. Sin leads to death. Whether on earth or in
> the afer-life, God repay disobedience justly with
> affliction and punishment. The creation of evil,
> by God, is His ultimate way of dealing with
> rebellious souls. In Isaiah God was declaring His
> power and control over everything. He’s Loving,
> Sovereign, and feared. God cannot create or
> commit sin. I had summed it up better in my
> previous post, but I guess, somehow it got
> deleted. And I know I posted it, because I saw
> post time of 0107am 4/16.
>
> Just now I posted the above response and it will
> not post. So I had to respond this way.

Evil as a sin against God! give a scriptural example so that I may better understand what you are trying to convey?
And why is it God cannot commit a sin? what if he covets a next mans betroth or land is that not a sin?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

Sure Frankster. "Evil as a sin against God" scriptual reference is as follows: "John 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil; Habakkuk 1:13 is talking about God when it says, "You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness..." Also, why on the face of the earth would God sin? Especially when He's the creator of all things, i.e, me, you, the birds, air, land, sea, etc..God answers to no one and there's no other God besides Him, He's in total control. Not even the pathetic devil, who fears God, can compete with Him. 1 Chronicles 29:11 "Everything in the heavens and the earth is Yours, O Lord. We adore You as being in control of everything."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2009 02:08AM by shine.

shine

Quote:

Sure Frankster. "Evil as a sin against God" scriptual reference is as follows: "John 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

Okay....The devil has sinned and as such is against God
Now..What makes the devil evil?

Quote:

The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil; Habakkuk 1:13 is talking about God when it says, "You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness..."

Has the Son of God destroyed Evil, is evil now extinct - no longer occurs?

Quote:

Also, why on the face of the earth would God sin? Especially when He's the creator of all things, i.e, me, you, the birds, air, land, sea, etc..God answers to no one and there's no other God besides Him, He's in total control. Not even the pathetic devil, who fears God, can compete with Him. 1 Chronicles 29:11 "Everything in the heavens and the earth is Yours, O Lord. We adore You as being in control of everything."

Maybe I am mistaken but I do not think I said God was a sinner, I believe I ask if He was an evil-doer. Which I believe is a reasonable question as you state "He's in total control" yet look at the state of the world from inception to date- rife with evil?

"God answers to no one" what about principles does he answer to those.... does that mean that He does not keeps his words?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2009 08:17AM by frankster.

I hear you Frankster. But ultimately it boils down to one's perspective and belief in God Himself. My belief, faith, and loyalty are to God and I will not question His authority. From a human perspective I understand what you are saying, but we are not in a position to question God's precepts and judgement on disobedience.

There is only ONE* perspective we can Know....Ours.
Can we know Gods perspective?
We are not questioning God - we are trying to understand our concept of God
We are not challenging God's precepts...we are trying to understand our interpretation of Them




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

frankster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is only ONE* perspective we can Know....Ours.
> Can we know Gods perspective?
> We are not questioning God - we are trying to understand our concept of God
> We are not challenging God's precepts...we are trying to understand our interpretation of Them

Now that is a candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free answer, frankster. i like.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2009 02:13AM by rasslisa.

I understand Franster. I feel your urge to understand God. But, at times, no one can understand God's action. God said in Isaiah 55:8-9 "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."

shine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand Franster. I feel your urge to
> understand God. But, at times, no one can
> understand God's action. God said in Isaiah 55:8-9
> "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your
> ways My ways,' says the Lord. 'For as the heavens
> are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher
> than your ways,
> And My thoughts than your thoughts."

The "Mystic(arcane)"meaning in that verse is that the earth is actually in the heavens, but only apears higher to those who do not understand and mistake appearances for reality

Is it not within Gods capacity to make us able understand?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2009 12:58AM by frankster.

Frankster, I will put it like this, imagine having someone pouring a sea of water down your throat...it will be too much for your stomach to handle. God's views and ideas are far fetched from ours. I think one of the reasons why God doesn’t reveal everything to us is because we cannot comprehend the complexity of a state or thing, humanly speaking…we’ve been grounded by earth and the common logics of what we’ve been taught in school or from natural experiences. God is far beyond us…

In answering your question, I think we can only understand God in the spirit vs. human. Humanly speaking, we're limited to what we can do vs. in the spirit. I think our human minds will be blown by His utter knowledge...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2009 03:12PM by shine.

shine

Quote:

Frankster, I will put it like this, imagine having someone pouring a sea of water down your throat...it will be too much for your stomach to handle. God's views and ideas are far fetched from ours. I think one of the reasons why God doesn’t reveal everything to us is because we cannot comprehend the complexity of a state or thing, humanly speaking…we’ve been grounded by earth and the common logics of what we’ve been taught in school or from natural experiences. God is far beyond us…

The Key is I can imagine it, and imagination is the tool of understanding.

To me the idea that man cannot understand God is a cop-out and a means to allow evil to continue to exist. We must face it we must question it, and so perchance we will rid ourselves of it. but if we out of fear or respect leave it be it will grow and spread.

Eg:-Early christian once believe that syphilis was God's punishment for infidelity...until man discovered penincilin

Quote:

In answering your question, I think we can only understand God in the spirit vs. human. Humanly speaking, we're limited to what we can do vs. in the spirit. I think our human minds will be blown by His utter knowledge...

But we are spirit?
The Mind has no limit..can you find the boundaries of the human imagination?
We are very capable of understanding all things..in his image and likeness we are made.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

We are not spirits (our spirit is within our physical body). And yes, while on earth, God can reveal things to us beyond our knowledge. But He doesn’t always do so…for instance, not even the Heavenly body, to include Jesus, knows the second coming.

shine

[quote]We are not spirits (our spirit is within our physical body).[/quote]

How can we not be spirits Especially since the spirit resides within us..
Okay so that means that "our" heart and brain is not "us" as they are inside us????

We are both mind, body, and spirit

[quote]And yes, while on earth, God can reveal things to us beyond our knowledge.[/quote]

Then why withhold such pertinent information


But He doesn’t always do so…for instance, not even the Heavenly body, to include Jesus, knows the second coming.[/quote]

That then means God is not All-Knowing?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

That means God isn't all knowing? Tell me, who does God owe a single explanation to? Or who does God has to answer to? The answer, no one! On my job, I don't question my boss's authority over me, why? Fear of being fired or not being promoted. Same principle exercised by God.

And I repeat, "we are not spirits (our spirit is within our physical body)."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2009 07:19AM by shine.

shine

Quote:

That means God isn't all knowing? Tell me, who does God owe a single explanation to? Or who does God has to answer to? The answer, no one!

God answer Only to his own word and promises - TRUTH

Quote:

On my job, I don't question my boss's authority over me, why? Fear of being fired or not being promoted. Same principle exercised by God.

When my life or freedom is in jeopardy, you bet I will question him/her.

Quote:

And I repeat, "we are not spirits (our spirit is within our physical body)."

Why not?
Whose spirit resides in us?

In my opinion God is in us and we are in God - Oneness




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

I agree, on my job, if my boss is putting me in an adverse or compromising position, I will question his/her authority or seek a different. But God is our only boss/God. God will not lead us down the wrong path of life. God wants the best for us. Like one scripture says “for I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. (Jeremiah 29:11).” And to fortify this, the Psalmist says in Psalm 91, “Those that dwell in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty” which means He will protect us. A good boss leads towards fruitfulness and a positive environment vs. an adverse or harmful one.

I agree with you, God does reside with in us. Because when Jesus died He left The Comforter (The Holy Spirit) with us. But the fact that the Holy Spirit resides in us and that we can live according to His leading is an awesome but elusive concept to many. The problem is not new. Nicodemus was a learned man, but he couldn't comprehend life in the Spirit. So Jesus told him, "the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8). The concept of the spirit is bigger than what we think. When we try to reduce life in the Spirit to a formula is like trying to capture the wind.

The concept of walking in the by or in the Spirit is like putting up a sail. When we walk by or in the Spirit, we stop striving. We are no longer driven; we are led. "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Romans 8:14). When we come to the end of our resources, we discover His. At times, we need to quickly set aside human resources so we may walk in the strength and adequacy of God’s Spirit. Which goes back to what I’ve said “we can only understand God in the spirit vs. human.”

shine

Quote:

I agree, on my job, if my boss is putting me in an adverse or compromising position, I will question his/her authority or seek a different. But God is our only boss/God. God will not lead us down the wrong path of life. God wants the best for us. Like one scripture says “for I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. (Jeremiah 29:11).” And to fortify this, the Psalmist says in Psalm 91, “Those that dwell in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty” which means He will protect us. A good boss leads towards fruitfulness and a positive environment vs. an adverse or harmful one.

You must Question all regardless of who are what they BE

Quote:

I agree with you, God does reside with in us. Because when Jesus died He left The Comforter (The Holy Spirit) with us. But the fact that the Holy Spirit resides in us and that we can live according to His leading is an awesome but elusive concept to many. The problem is not new. Nicodemus was a learned man, but he couldn't comprehend life in the Spirit. So Jesus told him, "the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8). The concept of the spirit is bigger than what we think. When we try to reduce life in the Spirit to a formula is like trying to capture the wind.

Man has captured the wind,thruogh understanding the weather.
So are you then saying that before Jesus death, Man had no spirit?

Quote:

The concept of walking in the by or in the Spirit is like putting up a sail. When we walk by or in the Spirit, we stop striving. We are no longer driven; we are led. "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Romans 8:14). When we come to the end of our resources, we discover His. At times, we need to quickly set aside human resources so we may walk in the strength and adequacy of God’s Spirit. Which goes back to what I’ve said “we can only understand God in the spirit vs. human.”

How do you know when you are being led by the spirit as opposed to being led by "human"(flesh)?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .