JudgeDred

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God created the universe and all that lies within, what is of God is perfect, and a glorification of God. God allowed satan and his demons to rebel against himself, and his creation, mainly to allow his creation to have free will, and to accept, or reject, him according to their free will. The consequence of this rebellion is that the devil tries to create an existence without God, because he claims that himself and his demons can be as God, thus hell is the absence of God, in that part of creation that God has reserved exclusively for satan and his followers.

Is our world a perfect world?
God “allowed satan and his demons” so they are partners in an enterprise?
What is free will? If I am force by fear of eternal damnation, from truly expressing.
I am not sure hell can be absent of God when in all likelihood, God created it or at least allow for it

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The devil is not able to create the perfection that is of God, and the existence that the devil promises is a perversion of God's creation. Jesus' ministry on earth was an example of God's perfectness: no hunger (only cornucopia); no illnesses; death's sting removed; deformities made whole; perfect judgement (the alleged adulterer who was brought alone to be served judgement without regard to the fact that she needed an accomplice to commit adultery was set free); the love of God (agape).

Where and when was there no Hunger, illness or death?
Yes…acts of mercy are known to occur.

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From the time of the Garden of Eden when man was tempted to ignore God's perfection, and to follow his own glory, man has tried over and over to create a perfect existence through his own governance: meeting the needs of hunger in the world; curing and preventing illnesses; undoing deformities; and implementing perfect (or blind) justice. In all attempts we have failed to be perfect, and human society is littered with failures, and shortcomings. The anti-christ, according to prophecy, will attempt to create perfect governance, as a last ditch effort by the devil ("falling down to the earth as a bolt of lightning with great fury, knowing his time is short..."), and will be able to make some success particularly in devising an economic system that will provide wealth, and leave those excluded (by their belief) in dire poverty. The anti-christ will also be able to bring about a measure of peace (since his is the Third Roman Empire one could speculate on a sort of Pax Europa, or something similar), "placing his tents in the beautiful land (Israel)...." At the end, the anti-christ will fail miserably, and bring the world to the brink of annihilation (the battle at Megiddo), save for the intervention of Jesus the Christ.

What Glory was man following/seeking – eternal life?
Yes Man has not found perfection, but has God?
Sounds very dramatic “ to the brink of annihilation…..intervention”, what point is God proving, it’s a foregone conclusion, He is God He knows all-prevent untold and unnecessary suffering……why not act now ?


**

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(To liftalee:
The bible is a very accurate historical record, none of the events described therein have ever been proven to have not occurred, and the events described are similar to what was recorded elsewhere concerning facts of each era. No prophecy written in the bible has ever been proven wrong, and have yet to be proven to be mere fable. The bible described the universe as a void, which scientists now accept as a fact, i.e. there is mostly empty space making up the universe. The bible references that the stars in the sky are more numerous than the grains of sand making up a beach...this has been proven to be mathematically accurate. How did the writers of the bible know to describe the universe long before the knowledge we now have by means of space exploration ???

I too believe the bible is a historical record among other things……but ACCURATE historical record – Not really.
Since I agree it is historical, to the extent that human affairs and civilization tend to re-enact the same sequence of development like the seasons of the year, then yes in that sense it is prophetic and accurate.
The number of stars and concept of the void, is not original nor exclusive to the bible.

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Feel free to follow your conscience, a loving God wishes you would heed him, but he also does not want people to have consciences shackled by the non-existence of choice, or alternatives to his perfection.)

Free will……. for as much as you or I are unaware of the influence of God or satan on events and or circumstance that we encounter, or why what ideas are engendered as a result of experience, owing to class, culture and place of birth. Dictated to by the biological imperative, driven through psychological perceptions created by associations, curtailed by the availability, suitability and accessibility of each given choice.

If one is unable to identify and delineated the effects of each influence, how can you know what is a choice freely taken?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2009 09:08AM by frankster.

liftalee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't been around here for a while and this is
> a rather inauspicious reintroduction, with my new
> login and such. ( I forgot to the old one). With
> all this claims about God, all those who speak as
> if the are privy to facts that the rest of mankind
> does not have, do you ever stop to think about how
> ridiculous your claims about "God" is. I mean any
> "God" now just the one who the fairy tale called
> the bible speaks about. Before you make claims
> based on belief, just do some research about the
> origin of the bible, it was made up by some Jews
> as an exclusive religion. All the claims of
> "miracles" by jesus was borrowed from other
> religions around the same time. its a a bunch
> nonsense. The new testament is very poetic and you
> an take things away from it that are of positive
> application even today. But please, religion is
> made up stuff. It does not matter how much you
> want it to be true, if it's not true, it's not
> true. It does not matter how many people believe
> it, if it's not true, that does not make it true.
> Religious rituals are just that rituals. And stop
> getting on people for not believing something
> because you believe it. If it's not true, does not
> matter hour hard you cry at nights, and weep in
> church, it's just not true.

HERE! HERE! or is it HEAR! HEAR! or should it be READ!READ!

Quote- What is free will? If I am force by fear of eternal damnation, from truly expressing.
I am not sure hell can be absent of God when in all likelihood, God created it or at least allow for it

Freedom is the capability to choose, among available options. If there are no options, or we are not capable of choosing, then we are not free. From the political perspective freedom is exercised by choosing a political party from alternatives. From the Biblical perspective, God allows satan to exist, and tempt man, so that man has an alternative to God. If we did not have an alternative to the path to God we would be slaves to his will, forced to follow only his path. Of course, God does not want us to follow satan, but he does not want us as slaves either.

Quote- Where and when was there no Hunger, illness or death?

The experience with Christ, during his ministry on earth, was that nothing was imperfect around him, nor was their suffering, thus: he caused the dead to rise; he fed the hungry with the loaves of bread, and fish; the sick he healed; the deformed he made whole. Thus there was no reason for unhappiness, or pain, and he lifted the spirits of the downtrodden with his Sermon on the Mount. He (Jesus) was like a light in the world, a beacon of hope, and a source of happiness.

Quote- Sounds very dramatic “ to the brink of annihilation…..intervention”, what point is God proving, it’s a foregone conclusion, He is God He knows all-prevent untold and unnecessary suffering……why not act now ?

Those who will be left behind after what is commonly known as the rapture, will be those who have rejected the Christ, thus they will be left to do as they please without the influence of God, and they will succeed to some measure, but only for a very short time. After we (i.e. human government), fail in our own efforts, our so-called deterrence MAD(Mutually Assured Destruction) will show itself for what it is, so all the countries with nuclear arsenals will unleash their missiles. Incidentally, in the caves where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, I have been told (by a non-Christian) that there were mushroom-like drawings on the walls. Is it any coincidence that a nuclear explosion forms a mushroom-shaped cloud? The person who related this to me claimed that these were phallic symbols, yet he also described a mushroom-like outline in the cave drawings. What else can cause near annihilation?

Quote- I too believe the bible is a historical record among other things……but ACCURATE historical record – Not really.

The Bible accurately describes a lot of historical events; battles, empires, cultures, famous persons, and other general events. No one has ever proved the Bible to have any false prophecies, particularly the already proven prophecies. In addition, in the Book of Revelations, it refers to a system of monitoring buying and selling, all over the world using a number. Today, it is commonplace to have access to monetary funds, and to add to these funds, through account numbers. Governments today issue identity numbers that are really the individuals name, or the number of their name, if you get my gist. How did the writer of this book know all this considering that the technology wasn't remotely available then?

NOTE:
To be very frank, Frankster, I think you already know what God is about, it's just that your conscience doesn't allow you to give in to God.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2009 10:07PM by JudgeDred.

JudgeDred

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Quote- What is free will? If I am force by fear of eternal damnation, from truly expressing.
I am not sure hell can be absent of God when in all likelihood, God created it or at least allow for it

Freedom is the capability to choose, among available options. If there are no options, or we are not capable of choosing, then we are not free. From the political perspective freedom is exercised by choosing a political party from alternatives. From the Biblical perspective, God allows satan to exist, and tempt man, so that man has an alternative to God. If we did not have an alternative to the path to God we would be slaves to his will, forced to follow only his path. Of course, God does not want us to follow satan, but he does not want us as slaves either.

NO!...True free will allows you to create your own option, not choose from among those given, who ever is doing the giving is in control of the chooser.
In Politics I can refuse to participate and fear no repercussion for doing so.
We do not have a true alternative to the path of God….if its God way or the devils way then the choice is false as the only alternative is froth with guilt, danger and suffering.
We are not free we are bound to the devil or God.

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Quote- Where and when was there no Hunger, illness or death?
The experience with Christ, during his ministry on earth, was that nothing was imperfect around him, nor was their suffering, thus: he caused the dead to rise; he fed the hungry with the loaves of bread, and fish; the sick he healed; the deformed he made whole. Thus there was no reason for unhappiness, or pain, and he lifted the spirits of the downtrodden with his Sermon on the Mount. He (Jesus) was like a light in the world, a beacon of hope, and a source of happiness.

Jesus Himself suffered and died, neither was it written that he heal every sick or fed all the hungry in the world or in Israel
Judas was one of the twelve around Him and he betray Jesus, that is evidence that even by his side stood evil, imperfect Satan.

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Quote- Sounds very dramatic “ to the brink of annihilation…..intervention”, what point is God proving, it’s a foregone conclusion, He is God He knows all-prevent untold and unnecessary suffering……why not act now ?
Those who will be left behind after what is commonly known as the rapture, will be those who have rejected the Christ, thus they will be left to do as they please without the influence of God, and they will succeed to some measure, but only for a very short time. After we (i.e. human government), fail in our own efforts, our so-called deterrence MAD(Mutually Assured Destruction) will show itself for what it is, so all the countries with nuclear arsenals will unleash their missiles. Incidentally, in the caves where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, I have been told (by a non-Christian) that there were mushroom-like drawings on the walls. Is it any coincidence that a nuclear explosion forms a mushroom-shaped cloud? The person who related this to me claimed that these were phallic symbols, yet he also described a mushroom-like outline in the cave drawings. What else can cause near annihilation?

Only those of course who God allowed to reject Him, whom God gave permission for Satan to tempt successfully – sounds rather contrived to me

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Quote- I too believe the bible is a historical record among other things……but ACCURATE historical record – Not really.
The Bible accurately describes a lot of historical events; battles, empires, cultures, famous persons, and other general events. No one has ever proved the Bible to have any false prophecies, particularly the already proven prophecies. In addition, in the Book of Revelations, it refers to a system of monitoring buying and selling, all over the world using a number. Today, it is commonplace to have access to monetary funds, and to add to these funds, through account numbers. Governments today issue identity numbers that are really the individuals name, or the number of their name, if you get my gist. How did the writer of this book know all this considering that the technology wasn't remotely available then?

Yes I have already agreed that the bible is historical, what I dispute is that it is accurate in its entirety

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Matt16:28 -
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Do you believe someone from the time of Jesus is still alive?

The use of Numbers to represent people has probable been around since the first census or prisoners were taken, the Egyptians has been taking census from before there was a Israel.

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NOTE:
To be very frank, Frankster, I think you already know what God is about, it's just that your conscience doesn't allow you to give in to God.

My conscience does not allow me to accept rubbish when the truth can so is plainly be seen.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

Quote- In Politics I can refuse to participate and fear no repercussion for doing so.

By refusing to participate you have in effect voted against the ruling party, maybe not directly by exercising a vote, but indirectly by not voting to keep the ruling party in power.

Quote- Jesus Himself suffered and died, neither was it written that he heal every sick or fed all the hungry in the world or in Israel
Judas was one of the twelve around Him and he betray Jesus, that is evidence that even by his side stood evil, imperfect Satan.

1. Jesus suffered and died because he was a sacrifice for the sins of man. In the Jewish practice of atonement, in keeping with the Ten Commandments (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), there has to be a sacrifice to atone for the sins of man. His sacrifice also sealed a new covenant, that of the New Testament.
2. If you observe, I said "nothing was imperfect around him," thus all who came into contact with him were made perfect, and without need. Even those who asked him to merely say the word and healing would occur, as in the case of the Roman Centurion and his ill servant.
3. Judas used his free will to abide with satan, rejecting Jesus who was well aware of him and his deceit. In perfect wisdom, Jesus knew that satan acting through Judas would ultimately accomplish God's will, to establish a New Covenant, so he allowed him to do his misdeed.

Quote- The use of Numbers to represent people has probable been around since the first census or prisoners were taken, the Egyptians has been taking census from before there was a Israel.

True, but I stated that governments of today give their citizens, and residents, ID numbers (eg. TRN numbers, Social Security Numbers) which are really their names, since your name identifies you. This is not about a census, but about a method of identifying each and every person uniquely, and in so doing control their ability to access an account through which they can deposit money, or debit the account (i.e. sell, or buy). Without this account, one would not be able to participate in the economy established by the anti-christ (in other words alms house). To get this account, one would have to openly submit to the authority of the beast, and reject the Christ. This ID number will be such that one of the numbers could not be merely guessed, but would have to be assigned by the government of the anti-christ. How I think this will work is another story which I will not attempt to describe here.

JudgeDred

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Quote- In Politics I can refuse to participate and fear no repercussion for doing so.
By refusing to participate you have in effect voted against the ruling party, maybe not directly by exercising a vote, but indirectly by not voting to keep the ruling party in power.

Your statement above is equally true of the opposition; it would be more accurate but still not true to have stated that, that my non-vote is in effect a vote for the WINNING party. Both positions are fallacious in that you win elections based on the amount of votes You GET. Non-votes literally and figuratively don’t count.

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Quote- Jesus Himself suffered and died, neither was it written that he heal every sick or fed all the hungry in the world or in Israel
Judas was one of the twelve around Him and he betray Jesus, that is evidence that even by his side stood evil, imperfect Satan.

1. Jesus suffered and died because he was a sacrifice for the sins of man. In the Jewish practice of atonement, in keeping with the Ten Commandments (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), there has to be a sacrifice to atone for the sins of man. His sacrifice also sealed a new covenant, that of the New Testament.

Why did we need atonement in the first place, because of imperfection?
What ever the reason, the facts remain that in His life He suffered Himself and died.

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2. If you observe, I said "nothing was imperfect around him," thus all who came into contact with him were made perfect, and without need. Even those who asked him to merely say the word and healing would occur, as in the case of the Roman Centurion and his ill servant.

Was there no sick in Nazareth?

Mt 13:58 -
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
How perfect is his Perfection If his ability to perform miracles can be limited by the unbelief of sinners?

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3. Judas used his free will to abide with satan, rejecting Jesus who was well aware of him and his deceit. In perfect wisdom, Jesus knew that satan acting through Judas would ultimately accomplish God's will, to establish a New Covenant, so he allowed him to do his misdeed.

Nevertheless, Judas was evil(imperfect) and in Jesus’s immediate surroundings -in contact.

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Quote- The use of Numbers to represent people has probable been around since the first census or prisoners were taken, the Egyptians has been taking census from before there was a Israel.
True, but I stated that governments of today give their citizens, and residents, ID numbers (eg. TRN numbers, Social Security Numbers) which are really their names, since your name identifies you. This is not about a census, but about a method of identifying each and every person uniquely, and in so doing control their ability to access an account through which they can deposit money, or debit the account (i.e. sell, or buy). Without this account, one would not be able to participate in the economy established by the anti-christ (in other words alms house). To get this account, one would have to openly submit to the authority of the beast, and reject the Christ. This ID number will be such that one of the numbers could not be merely guessed, but would have to be assigned by the government of the anti-christ. How I think this will work is another story which I will not attempt to describe here.

Numerology is one of the oldest sciences, and though not exactly what you are here describing it fits many of the requirements.

The ability to predict the future is a result of knowledge….. Not of divine qualities or Godliness.

Jesus who is divine made the following prediction
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
I ask again do you people that someone from that time is still alive today?
Did Jesus make a mistake?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2009 07:09AM by frankster.

Frankster- what a lot of questions you have to ask, and I don't think I am the one to be giving all these answers, but I will continue:-

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Matt16:28 -
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Obviously the people standing before Jesus are not alive today, there are different interpretations of this verse:
1. Some taking the sequential event of the transfiguration of Jesus in the presence of the apostles Peter, James, and John, which takes place six days after he makes the statement. In the transfiguration, Jesus' face shines as the sun, and his raiment became white as the light, he is also seen talking to Moses and Elias. As Peter spoke to Jesus a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice emanated from the cloud saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear him..." Jesus was glorified in the presence of these apostles, and the Godhead gave witness to the divinity of the Christ, as the Messiah, King of Kings, Lord of Lords. In this event Jesus is established as the ruler of the Kingdom to come.

2. From the People's New Testament, this verse refers not to Christ's return to judge the world, but to his spiritual coming to establish his Kingdom which was fulfilled in the day of Pentecost. In the Gospel of Mark (9:1), it is said, "Verily I say unto you that there are some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the Kingdom of God come with power..." Here Mark has used the phrase, "...come with power," instead of, "...coming in his Kingdom." In the Acts of the Apostles, Jesus says, "but you shall receive power, after the Holy Ghost has come upon you..."
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Quote- Your statement above is equally true of the opposition; it would be more accurate but still not true to have stated that, that my non-vote is in effect a vote for the WINNING party. Both positions are fallacious in that you win elections based on the amount of votes You GET. Non-votes literally and figuratively don’t count.

If you didn't vote for the party in power, then that is one less potential vote for such a party, and one less guarantee that they will remain in power. Contrast this with the result that would be potentially possible if one voted in favour of the ruling party.
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Quote- Why did we need atonement in the first place, because of imperfection?

You just answered your own question, need I say more?? As I stated also in the previous message, "in keeping with the Ten Commandments (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth..." Thus lies our imperfection, we all are subject to sin.

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Quote- Mt 13:58 -
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
How perfect is his Perfection If his ability to perform miracles can be limited by the unbelief of sinners?

Of course, we have free will, we can accept or reject the Christ, and if we reject him then we are seeking another power, one that is not of Christ. We have to ask for such help, since we have a choice, and God does not seek to take away that choice, until his word has been preached all over the world. That is why after satan told God that Job does not serve him for nothing, and because God has put a hedge around Job was the only reason he serves him. In the Book of Job, satan asks that God remove this compelling support, and to allow satan to tempt Job to reject God by causing him problems and sorrows. Job was in a position where he had to choose who he would seek help from...
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Quote- The ability to predict the future is a result of knowledge….. Not of divine qualities or Godliness.

One point about the account of my interpretation of the Book of Revelations is that it reflects that the writer of Revelations envisioned a world of technology that the vocabulary of his language at that time could not provide words to describe. How could someone of thousands of years ago describe events that require modern technology to accomplish, such as global telecommunications, with data networks?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2009 07:26AM by JudgeDred.

JudgeDred

Quote:

Frankster- what a lot of questions you have to ask, and I don't think I am the one to be giving all these answers, but I will continue:-

It is in an effort to understand what it is you are posting

Quote:

Quote-
Matt16:28 -
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Obviously the people standing before Jesus are not alive today, there are different interpretations of this verse:
1. Some taking the sequential event of the transfiguration of Jesus in the presence of the apostles Peter, James, and John, which takes place six days after he makes the statement. In the transfiguration, Jesus' face shines as the sun, and his raiment became white as the light, he is also seen talking to Moses and Elias. As Peter spoke to Jesus a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice emanated from the cloud saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear him..." Jesus was glorified in the presence of these apostles, and the Godhead gave witness to the divinity of the Christ, as the Messiah, King of Kings, Lord of Lords. In this event Jesus is established as the ruler of the Kingdom to come.

2. From the People's New Testament, this verse refers not to Christ's return to judge the world, but to his spiritual coming to establish his Kingdom which was fulfilled in the day of Pentecost. In the Gospel of Mark (9:1), it is said, "Verily I say unto you that there are some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the Kingdom of God come with power..." Here Mark has used the phrase, "...come with power," instead of, "...coming in his Kingdom." In the Acts of the Apostles, Jesus says, "but you shall receive power, after the Holy Ghost has come upon you..."

The Transfiguration, nor the coming of the Comforter is not the Coming of the Kingdom. Here is another description of the coming of the son of man in all His glory and power - Kingdom

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Matt24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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Quote- Your statement above is equally true of the opposition; it would be more accurate but still not true to have stated that, that my non-vote is in effect a vote for the WINNING party. Both positions are fallacious in that you win elections based on the amount of votes You GET. Non-votes literally and figuratively don’t count.
If you didn't vote for the party in power, then that is one less potential vote for such a party, and one less guarantee that they will remain in power. Contrast this with the result that would be potentially possible if one voted in favour of the ruling party.

And if you did not vote for the party out of party, that is one less potential vote for such a party, and one less guarantee that they will gain power. Contrast this with the result that would be potentially possible if one vote in favor contesting party…..

My Argument still stands in that a non-vote helps neither party equally.

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Quote- Why did we need atonement in the first place, because of imperfection?
You just answered your own question, need I say more?? As I stated also in the previous message, "in keeping with the Ten Commandments (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth..." Thus lies our imperfection, we all are subject to sin.

Exactly so imperfection is with us from creation, we God’s creation was created imperfect, therefore the fault lies in God’s imperfect creation skills being the reason for suffering and pain.

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Quote- Mt 13:58 -
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
How perfect is his Perfection If his ability to perform miracles can be limited by the unbelief of sinners?

Of course, we have free will, we can accept or reject the Christ, and if we reject him then we are seeking another power, one that is not of Christ. We have to ask for such help, since we have a choice, and God does not seek to take away that choice, until his word has been preached all over the world. That is why after satan told God that Job does not serve him for nothing, and because God has put a hedge around Job was the only reason he serves him. In the Book of Job, satan asks that God remove this compelling support, and to allow satan to tempt Job to reject God by causing him problems and sorrows. Job was in a position where he had to choose who he would seek help from...

When you say we have "free will" what exactly do you mean by "free", "free" of what - Gods control, if that be true why then do Satan needs his permission to tempt Job?

Do I have the choice free will to not reject or accept Jesus? and instead choose my own path "free" of God and Satan?

In the case of Job we see God and Satan working as accomplices in the murder and destruction of Job’s family, How is that not God participating in Evil and causing Pain and suffering?

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Quote- The ability to predict the future is a result of knowledge….. Not of divine qualities or Godliness.
One point about the account of my interpretation of the Book of Revelations is that it reflects that the writer of Revelations envisioned a world of technology that the vocabulary of his language at that time could not provide words to describe. How could someone of thousands of years ago describe events that require modern technology to accomplish, such as global telecommunications, with data networks?

Scientists and others predict the future all the time. The bible itself states that there is nothing new under the sun, it has been of olden times just forgotten.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2009 10:40AM by frankster.

Still at it, Frankster. You have extensive knowledge of the words of the Bible, but your comprehension of it differs from that of ecumenical Christian theology. In the Gospel according to John (John 12:37-40), it is said that there are some whose eyes are blinded, and their hearts are hardened, so they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart. Also in the Book of Isaiah (Isaiah 53:1), this first verse states, "Who has believed our report, and to whom is the Lord revealed?" This chapter in Isaiah is a prophecy of the Messiah, who Christians have come to know as Jesus the Christ, and it suggests that their will be some who will not accept the Christ, denying what is reported of him.
I suppose you cannot be dictated to, as to what you accept, and obviously you are not alone in your disbelief, but it doesn't change the intention of the Bible, because it is given that there will be some who unfortunately reject the meaning of the word. Jesus also spoke in parables to crowds gathered around him, and in private he would explain the meaning of the parables to his disciples(Matthew 13:1-17). He explained in this chapter that the disciples would be allowed to have exclusive knowledge of the Kingdom of Heaven.

With that I will add some more to what I have said:
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Quote- The Transfiguration, nor the coming of the Comforter is not the Coming of the Kingdom. Here is another description of the coming of the son of man in all His glory and power - Kingdom

Quote:
Matt24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus' ministry on earth was meant to be partly a preview of his Kingdom on earth; with the miracles, and his preaching, that were meant to give such an experience. The transfiguration was part of that preview, where God gave evidence of Jesus' deity, and the disciples saw him as he truly would be, in his Kingdom of power and glory.
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Quote- Exactly so imperfection is with us from creation, we God’s creation was created imperfect, therefore the fault lies in God’s imperfect creation skills being the reason for suffering and pain.

If you read the Book of Genesis, God created Eden where man could live in perfection, as long as we obeyed him (Genesis 1:17). Adam and Eve chose to disobey him, thus denying themselves the right to this perfect existence . Through their sin, separation occurred with God's perfection, and we were let go to do what we wished within the limits of our own fleshly existence(Genesis 3:15-19).
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Quote- When you say we have "free will" what exactly do you mean by "free", "free" of what - Gods control, if that be true why then do Satan needs his permission to tempt Job?
Do I have the choice free will to not reject or accept Jesus? and instead choose my own path "free" of God and Satan?

You did not create yourself, as such this existence offers choices between God, and the devil. That is the freedom you have, the ability to accept God, or reject him for the devil. If you could choose your own path you would be self-created, but you can feel free to believe that you can choose your own path, ultimately it all comes down to the same thing.
satan needed God's permission to tempt Job, because Job was under God's authority, not that of satan.
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Quote- In the case of Job we see God and Satan working as accomplices in the murder and destruction of Job’s family, How is that not God participating in Evil and causing Pain and suffering?

God did not commit any of these acts against Job, it was satan who challenged God by suggesting that Job was not free, but rather a slave to God, as long as God provided him with what he wanted. In the Book of Job (Job 1:9), "Then satan answered the Lord, and said, doth Job serve God for nothing?"
In all fairness to the free will of Job, God had to allow satan to take away what God had blessed him with to see if Job would still be loyal to him, if not then Job would have been nothing more than the slave of God, and satan would be justified in his revolt against God. In the Book of Genesis (Genesis 3:5) satan encourages rebellion against God, "For God knows that in the day you eat (the forbidden fruit) then your eyes will be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Isaiah speaks of the revolt of satan (Isaiah 14:12-16), "How are you fallen from heaven...for you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most High..."
**********************************************************************************************************
Quote- Scientists and others predict the future all the time. The bible itself states that there is nothing new under the sun, it has been of olden times just forgotten.

As I stated previously, the author of the Book of Revelation had no words in his ancient vocabulary to describe the visions of the future he saw, but the infrastructure to monitor commerce, and people's involvement in an economy, is JUST NOW coming to reality. In today's reality, people have to get Social Security Numbers to be able to work, and the United States government is tightening the controls, through technology everyday. It is becoming less possible for an illegal alien to live and work in the U.S. without such a number. Don't get me wrong, I am not accusing the U.S. government of being the country of the anti-Christ, I am just suggesting that the technology is available today, and is being improved everyday.
Scientists cannot predict the future, but they can direct what events will take place in the future. Albert Einstein knew that his concept of the relationship between matter and energy (E = m*c*c)could lead to the development of a nuclear bomb.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2009 04:07PM by JudgeDred.

JudgeDred

Quote:

Still at it, Frankster. You have extensive knowledge of the words of the Bible, but your comprehension of it differs from that of ecumenical Christian theology

Agreed

Quote:

In the Gospel according to John (John 12:37-40), it is said that there are some whose eyes are blinded, and their hearts are hardened, so they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart. Also in the Book of Isaiah (Isaiah 53:1), this first verse states, "Who has believed our report, and to whom is the Lord revealed?" This chapter in Isaiah is a prophecy of the Messiah, who Christians have come to know as Jesus the Christ, and it suggests that their will be some who will not accept the Christ, denying what is reported of him.

I think John was referring to people who practice theology – the letter of the law…like the Pharisees and Sadducees
That entire chapter(Isiah53) speaks of a suffering servant, messiah who sacrifices his own for the good of others.
In terms of prophetic It is true of any Holy man, who takes up a cause on behave of the people, in the name of God, and pays the ultimate price.

Quote:

I suppose you cannot be dictated to, as to what you accept, and obviously you are not alone in your disbelief, but it doesn't change the intention of the Bible, because it is given that there will be some who unfortunately reject the meaning of the word. Jesus also spoke in parables to crowds gathered around him, and in private he would explain the meaning of the parables to his disciples(Matthew 13:1-17). He explained in this chapter that the disciples would be allowed to have exclusive knowledge of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Whilst it is true Jesus did teach his disciples in private and possible in secrets, there is no private interpretation of scripture
We agree that our interpretations differ, so now which is nearer scriptural accuracy?

Quote:

With that I will add some more to what I have said:
Quote- The Transfiguration, nor the coming of the Comforter is not the Coming of the Kingdom. Here is another description of the coming of the son of man in all His glory and power - Kingdom

Quote:
Matt24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus' ministry on earth was meant to be partly a preview of his Kingdom on earth; with the miracles, and his preaching, that were meant to give such an experience. The transfiguration was part of that preview, where God gave evidence of Jesus' deity, and the disciples saw him as he truly would be, in his Kingdom of power and glory.

A preview of the event is not the Event, if it were so then it would have made Jesus prophetic threat farcical, as a man out of date and out of touch. In short the prophesied event would have been actually current event.
The event has not occurred, and the people of the time is all assumed dead, in one case he was preparing to leave not come - Transfiguration, and the other a clear case of misidentification(form/function/reveal/expression) Holy Spirit.

Quote:

Quote- Exactly so imperfection is with us from creation, we God’s creation was created imperfect, therefore the fault lies in God’s imperfect creation skills being the reason for suffering and pain.
If you read the Book of Genesis, God created Eden where man could live in perfection, as long as we obeyed him (Genesis 1:17). Adam and Eve chose to disobey him, thus denying themselves the right to this perfect existence . Through their sin, separation occurred with God's perfection, and we were let go to do what we wished within the limits of our own fleshly existence(Genesis 3:15-19).

They Could but did they?
Who made them capable of disobedience?
When and where was existence perfect?

Quote:

Quote- When you say we have "free will" what exactly do you mean by "free", "free" of what - Gods control, if that be true why then do Satan needs his permission to tempt Job?
Do I have the choice free will to not reject or accept Jesus? and instead choose my own path "free" of God and Satan?

You did not create yourself, as such this existence offers choices between God, and the devil. That is the freedom you have, the ability to accept God, or reject him for the devil.

If so then we are not “free willed”. Here it is at first we had One choice in which to express our Will which was to Obey God. Now we are given “Free-Will” the choice to Disobey God. Our choices of Ways in which to express our “Free-Will are still limited – now to two, and to that extent we are not “free”.

Quote:

If you could choose your own path you would be self-created, but you can feel free to believe that you can choose your own path, ultimately it all comes down to the same thing.
satan needed God's permission to tempt Job, because Job was under God's authority, not that of satan.

That’s my point if I cannot choose My own path, then I am still not Free-Willed.

Quote:

Quote- In the case of Job we see God and Satan working as accomplices in the murder and destruction of Job’s family, How is that not God participating in Evil and causing Pain and suffering?
God did not commit any of these acts against Job, it was satan who challenged God by suggesting that Job was not free, but rather a slave to God, as long as God provided him with what he wanted. In the Book of Job (Job 1:9), "Then satan answered the Lord, and said, doth Job serve God for nothing?"
In all fairness to the free will of Job, God had to allow satan to take away what God had blessed him with to see if Job would still be loyal to him, if not then Job would have been nothing more than the slave of God, and satan would be justified in his revolt against God. In the Book of Genesis (Genesis 3:5) satan encourages rebellion against God, "For God knows that in the day you eat (the forbidden fruit) then your eyes will be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Isaiah speaks of the revolt of satan (Isaiah 14:12-16), "How are you fallen from heaven...for you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most High..."

There was no fairness to Job, who consulted with him before taking these actions against or for him?
Then God to make Job Vulnerable, to Satan’s predatory behavior – that’s complicity knowledge before and or after the fact.
Opening of eyes and knowing Good and Evil is that not the free-will we are discussing. It was the eating of the fruit that conveyed on us “Free-Will”.

Quote:

Quote- Scientists and others predict the future all the time. The bible itself states that there is nothing new under the sun, it has been of olden times just forgotten.
As I stated previously, the author of the Book of Revelation had no words in his ancient vocabulary to describe the visions of the future he saw, but the infrastructure to monitor commerce, and people's involvement in an economy, is JUST NOW coming to reality. In today's reality, people have to get Social Security Numbers to be able to work, and the United States government is tightening the controls, through technology everyday. It is becoming less possible for an illegal alien to live and work in the U.S. without such a number. Don't get me wrong, I am not accusing the U.S. government of being the country of the anti-Christ, I am just suggesting that the technology is available today, and is being improved everyday.
Scientists cannot predict the future, but they can direct what events will take place in the future. Albert Einstein knew that his concept of the relationship between matter and energy (E = m*c*c)could lead to the development of a nuclear bomb.

If Scientist can “ direct what events will take place in the future” it stands to reason they can predict future events?
The more we understand and know is the more able scientist are “direct …events” more and more




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

Quote- I think John was referring to people who practice theology – the letter of the law…like the Pharisees and Sadducees
That entire chapter(Isiah53) speaks of a suffering servant, messiah who sacrifices his own for the good of others.
In terms of prophetic It is true of any Holy man, who takes up a cause on behave of the people, in the name of God, and pays the ultimate price.

The Pharisees and Sadduces who practiced theology, according to Jesus, were doing it not out of a desire to truly worship God, but as a means of impressing others self-righteously, "praying where others could see them...doing alms in a manner that they would be seen(Matthew 6:2-6)." Jesus was of the opinion that these people were of the devil, wolves in the clothing of sheep (Matthew 23:29-33). So the Pharisees and Sadduces represented people who were under the devil's authority, but who were deceptive, no different than those who were open.

Quote- Whilst it is true Jesus did teach his disciples in private and possible in secrets, there is no private interpretation of scripture
We agree that our interpretations differ, so now which is nearer scriptural accuracy?

Indeed there is no private interpretation of scripture, but Jesus knew that his efforts were wasted on people who were not inclined to the authority of God (Luke 10:6), those who have not accepted Christ as the Son of God, the Messiah, were not open to his doctrine (Luke 10:21-22). In chapter 10 of the Gospel of Luke, Jesus refers to the wise and prudent having no understanding of his Word, but the babes. The wise and prudent believe in their own wisdom and creativity as the answer to all of man's problems, and that God has little role to play in the scheme of things. The babe accepts the wisdom of its parents, and is not dependent on its own wisdom, and strength (Mark 10:14-15).

Quote- They Could but did they?
Who made them capable of disobedience?
When and where was existence perfect?

Their capacity for disobedience is the result of their free-will, they can accept the way of God, or reject it. If they were not capable of disobedience they would be slaves to God, incapable of rebelling against his way.

Quote- If so then we are not “free willed”. Here it is at first we had One choice in which to express our Will which was to Obey God. Now we are given “Free-Will” the choice to Disobey God. Our choices of Ways in which to express our “Free-Will are still limited – now to two, and to that extent we are not “free”.

We did not create ourselves, and we exist in a world where we are limited by the Laws of Nature which we did not create. The Law of Gravity, as one of the Laws of Nature, restricts us from attempting to walk over the side of a cliff, or off the top of a building. We have no choice but to obey this Law, we cannot change this Law, or do away with it, we live within its bounds, or die. Living within the bounds of this Law means that to step of the side of cliff, and not die, we must have some form of support, such as a bridge, suspension from a crane, or helicopter, etc., but we cannot step off into open space and live.
To the contrary, Jesus as that part of God that became flesh (John 1:14), was able to command nature to be calm, quietening the storm (Luke 8:24-25).
So to be able to extend our choices beyond two, we would have to have been self-created, which we are not. The devil would have us believe that we could be as Gods (Genesis 1:5).

Good Post and am following along, first for a long time I have seen a post with interaction as this site as been like a grave yard, so quiet. I am undecided about the question posed as there is so much evil in the world today. I am thinking why did God not prevent it from happening and not so much that God is an evil doer but why not prevent the evil from happening. Just my two cents.

Frankster, shine great discussion!!

JudgeDred

Quote:

The Pharisees and Sadduces who practiced theology, according to Jesus, were doing it not out of a desire to truly worship God, but as a means of impressing others self-righteously, "praying where others could see them...doing alms in a manner that they would be seen(Matthew 6:2-6)." Jesus was of the opinion that these people were of the devil, wolves in the clothing of sheep (Matthew 23:29-33). So the Pharisees and Sadduces represented people who were under the devil's authority, but who were deceptive, no different than those who were open.

Is that not true of theologians today?

Quote:

Indeed there is no private interpretation of scripture, but Jesus knew that his efforts were wasted on people who were not inclined to the authority of God (Luke 10:6), those who have not accepted Christ as the Son of God, the Messiah, were not open to his doctrine (Luke 10:21-22). In chapter 10 of the Gospel of Luke, Jesus refers to the wise and prudent having no understanding of his Word, but the babes. The wise and prudent believe in their own wisdom and creativity as the answer to all of man's problems, and that God has little role to play in the scheme of things. The babe accepts the wisdom of its parents, and is not dependent on its own wisdom, and strength (Mark 10:14-15).

“not inclined” would’nt that be pre-judging a person? Guess not cause Jesus knows the future? If that be the case then these poor chaps who were “not inclined” will have missed an opportunity to gain greater understand of Christ message is that a righteous act?

When Jesus uttered those words the “wise and prudent” were the official religious body(the Pharisee and the Sadducees) who practiced and maintained the accepted religious dogma(theology) of the day.
No no the “babes” dependence is not based in submission, else where would be our Free-will. He was seeking the willingness that “babes” have to learn from his disciples.

In the same vain, Does Jesus wants us to all to become itinerant preachers (Luke 10:21), literally sell everything we own? And then give the proceeds to the poor? Neither does he wants us to be literally “babes” that just accept things

Quote:

Their capacity for disobedience is the result of their free-will, they can accept the way of God, or reject it. If they were not capable of disobedience they would be slaves to God, incapable of rebelling against his way.

What Good is this freedom if the only way I can express it, is by disobeying God which will result in punishment?
Its like a man telling you, you free to step over the white line that surrounds you but the moment you do I am going to shoot you in the head …..your choice.

Quote:

We did not create ourselves, and we exist in a world where we are limited by the Laws of Nature which we did not create. The Law of Gravity, as one of the Laws of Nature, restricts us from attempting to walk over the side of a cliff, or off the top of a building. We have no choice but to obey this Law, we cannot change this Law, or do away with it, we live within its bounds, or die. Living within the bounds of this Law means that to step of the side of cliff, and not die, we must have some form of support, such as a bridge, suspension from a crane, or helicopter, etc., but we cannot step off into open space and live.

In your example man is able to surmount the Law of Gravity through the use of technology (skilled knowledge) through the application of other Laws of Nature. In that sense we are not limited by the Laws of Nature, but by our ignorance of their operations. So we need not be able to create ourselves in order to find way to circumvent the Laws of Nature. Your own argument disproves itself.

Quote:

To the contrary, Jesus as that part of God that became flesh (John 1:14), was able to command nature to be calm, quietening the storm (Luke 8:24-25).
So to be able to extend our choices beyond two, we would have to have been self-created, which we are not. The devil would have us believe that we could be as Gods (Genesis 1:5).

I think that’s a false assumption that we only have two options in which to exercise our freedom…which scriptures led you there or form the basis of this viewpoint?

If by the devil you are referring to the serpent, he told no lie. As later in vs22 God corroborates his statements.....any false assumption is your own misunderstanding.

Gen 3:22

Quote:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

Lest we forget You have yet to tell me when and where was perfection?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2009 07:29AM by frankster.

Observa, let me begin by saying congrats with your new family and life; which, ironically and partly, answers your question as to "why doesn't God prevent evil from happening." How? You see, what doesn’t kill you, as you now know, makes you stronger. God can use evil acts, sufferings, tragedies, etc., and create a greater good or growth. Another answer is as long as the devil is in our midst evil will continue to prevail. But soon, and very soon, Jesus will return and cleanse this world of all evil. All in all, God wants us to separate ourselves from evil/sin, reverence Him, by faith, regardless of the evil around us, because He’s our rock, shield, comforter, and protector. Remember He’ll return and make this place a better place. Just my 2 cents and congrats again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2009 10:30AM by shine.

Observa, let me begin by saying congrats with your new family and life; which, ironically and partly, answers your question as to "why doesn't God prevent evil from happening." How? You see, what doesn’t kill you, as you now know, makes you stronger. God can use evil acts, sufferings, tragedies, etc., and create a greater good or growth. Another answer is as long as the devil is in our midst evil will continue to prevail. But soon, and very soon, Jesus will return and cleanse this world of all evil. All in all, God wants us to separate ourselves from evil/sin, reverence Him, by faith, regardless of the evil around us, because He’s our rock, shield, comforter, and protector. Remember He’ll return and make this place a better place. Just my 2 cents and congrats again.



Please God do not make me stronger by having people who I love die.
As is often the case evil acts, sufferrings and tragegedies tends to create MONSTERS
When teaching it is better to use good and not evil
In one of his prophecies Jesus intimates that he would return before his disciples had finishes preaching in Israel, or before all the people then living would die - That has been proven wrong.
My two cents - You and I not Jesus will make this world a better place......thats the message of Jesus life.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

Frankster, you said “Please God do not make me stronger by having people who I love die” And I would cry out to Him for the same reason. But, realistically, what else can we do when the inevitable happens, death? And you are right, monstrous events can come about when tragedies or sufferings strike; however, “to each his own.” Point in case, sadness and depression paralyzed me when I lost my brother, because of the fact I’ll never see him again. But through the agony of my loss I discovered certain abilities I thought I couldn’t possess. Through Christ, I found myself rediscovering life in a humble way. I became more understanding, gentle, and compassionate to others. Also, I learnt not to take others or situations in life for granted. Observa survived the darkness. And with his struggles/sufferings he achieved a new beam of light or life with gratitude and appreciation.

Now Frankster, where did you find this: “In one of his prophecies Jesus intimates that he would return before his disciples had finishes preaching in Israel, or before all the people then living would die - That has been proven wrong.” Please provide references Sir!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2009 04:30PM by shine.

And oh! You said:

"My two cents - You and I not Jesus will make this world a better place......that’s the message of Jesus life."

I disagree: Jesus keeps us whole, not ourselves, you, or I. Jesus’ common denominator in all of us, LOVE/GOD, jells us together.
I agree: You and I can make this world better, but the absence of Jesus will result in chaos and destruction. Hence, we need Jesus!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2009 06:29PM by shine.

shine

Quote:

Frankster, you said “Please God do not make me stronger by having people who I love die” And I would cry out to Him for the same reason. But, realistically, what else can we do when the inevitable happens, death? And you are right, monstrous events can come about when tragedies or sufferings strike; however, “to each his own.” Point in case, sadness and depression paralyzed me when I lost my brother, because of the fact I’ll never see him again. But through the agony of my loss I discovered certain abilities I thought I couldn’t possess. Through Christ, I found myself rediscovering life in a humble way. I became more understanding, gentle, and compassionate to others. Also, I learnt not to take others or situations in life for granted. Observa survived the darkness. And with his struggles/sufferings he achieved a new beam of light or life with gratitude and appreciation.

My sympathies on the lost of your brother, so too I have lost a sister. It was not inevitable that she would die when she died, nor do I ascribe her death to Gods doing, as a way of making me stronger. The death of my sister did not make me more compassionate or humble that was something my Mom taught me since childhood. What it did do was to let me search for more ways to deal with the scourge that is cancer, if anything it made me some what disappointed in the medical profession for being so tunnel vision.

Quote:

Now Frankster, where did you find this: “In one of his prophecies Jesus intimates that he would return before his disciples had finishes preaching in Israel, or before all the people then living would die - That has been proven wrong.” Please provide references Sir!

Mt 16:28 -
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Quote:

And oh! You said:
"My two cents - You and I not Jesus will make this world a better place......that’s the message of Jesus life."

I disagree: Jesus keeps us whole, not ourselves, you, or I. Jesus’ common denominator in all of us, LOVE/GOD, jells us together.
I agree: You and I can make this world better, but the absence of Jesus will result in chaos and destruction. Hence, we need Jesus!

Yes if you say it like that - we are His agents and Jesus will only manifest when we do Gods work.....My response was directed at those "waiting on the Lord" to return for his world




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

Happy New Year Franster and All!

Now Frankster, all this time I'm busting my chops looking for an answer that was in front of me. I was curious to find the answer to what you said:

Mt 16:28 -
Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

The answer I found was in the very next chapter:

Mt 17:1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high
mountain by themselves...
Mt 17:2 As they looked on, a change came over Jesus: His face was shining like the sun, and
His clothes were dazzling white...
Mt 17:3 Then the three disciples saw Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus.
Mt 17:5 While he was talking, a shining cloud came over them, and a voice from the cloud said,
"This is my own dear Son, with whom I am pleased--listen to Him"

Jesus' was referring to His disciples in Mt 16:28. Jesus fulfilled His premonition in the following chapter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2010 03:44PM by shine.

Happy New Year Shine and fellow ackeeites

Quote:

Now Frankster, all this time I'm busting my chops looking for an answer that was in front of me. I was curious to find the answer to what you said:

I warms me to know that you spent time and effort in search of the Truth

Quote:

Mt 16:28 -
Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

The answer I found was in the very next chapter:

Mt 17:1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high
mountain by themselves...
Mt 17:2 As they looked on, a change came over Jesus: His face was shining like the sun, and
His clothes were dazzling white...
Mt 17:3 Then the three disciples saw Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus.
Mt 17:5 While he was talking, a shining cloud came over them, and a voice from the cloud said,
"This is my own dear Son, with whom I am pleased--listen to Him"

Jesus' was referring to His disciples in Mt 16:28. Jesus fulfilled His premonition in the following chapter.

The transfiguration is Jesus fulfillment of the traditions of the Law(Moses) and of the Prophets(Elijah) - The Christ
I was thinking that vs27 spells it out that he was speaking of the Judgment.

Matthew 16:27

Quote:

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .