And with regards to Adam and Eve, apparently, they obeyed the wrong being “the devil,” and God's punishment was to inflict death and suffering upon them and all their (off springs) ancestors, including such niceties as making childbirth painful for women and so on.

This is my opinion, remember God is all knowing and He knows the weakness and wickedness of our hearts. We, the off springs of Adam and Eve, are still connected to Adam’s and Eve’s frailty to the adversary, the devil, the fallen angel, who is still our midst. So God sees and understand the generation to follow will continue to fall to the devil…

In Ephesians 6:12, Paul says, “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”

The devil’s goal is to deceive us and blind us from God’s truth and purpose for us. Ultimately, the devil wants to take as many souls with him in the lake of fire, see John 10:10.

shine

Quote:

Say what? What do you mean by “the evil is in God further(in addition to) punishing the child after it has 3rd degree burns.?” After the warning was given and the child got burnt, due to his own negligence to listen, what other action did the Warner /God take? Moreover, are you saying the child should be able to be negligent/disobedient and have the Warner/God undo the consequences of touching the hot surface of the stove?

THE SIN IS ITS OWN PUNISHMENT
My point is God does not punish, because if he does then he is an evil doer. If God is the cause of misery and suffering then he is doing the devils work.
In the cases of the child who was burned, the act of disobedience was its own punishment. So if God was to further punish this childthat would indeed be evil.
You said God punish, so it is you who in this case must show what other action did the warner take? But if we take it from the front end, would you knowingly allow a child to harm itself?

Quote:

God is a just God; God is a holy God. Sin has to be paid for. Either Jesus pays for our sin or we reject Him and end up having to pay for our own sin. It’s not punishment; it’s simply the harvest of the seeds that we sow. Every wrong action is going to merit a consequence. That is just the way life is; that is the way that God set up justice and righteousness.

We agree that every (wrong) action merits a consequence, and that we sow what we reap. So Jesus only pays for our sins if we accept him? Can anyone else pay forour sins?

Quote:

On the day of the Great Throne Judgment, the second death in (Revelation 20:11-14), God will forever deal with disobedience and rebellion to His will. It’s our choice/free-will to obey/disobey His gospel/commandments to us; the choice is death or life. I’ve chosen life. We’ve been warned of the consequences of disobedience. Above all, God doesn’t tempt us to do evil so He can trap us into sin; “James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”

The story of Job, puts that in question as God in conjunction with the devil conspired to destroy Jobs family and life.

Quote:

Please ensure to answer my question as to how “God further(in addition to) punishing the child after it has 3rd degree burns.?” How was the child further punished? Because nothing was said that the Warner/God went over and devilishly inflicted more punishment, besides than the child’s (”us”) own pain/suffering (price) for not obeying. What else could the Warner do or say to the warnee?

Ignorance Not God Punishes
I never said that God did any such thing, you implied that God did such, my response was and is that "THE SIN IS ITS OWN PUNISHMENT". You were the one who has been saying that God punishes, not I.
Now here is an example of God further punishing people after the Sin which is its own punishment. Adam and Eve ate the fruit, resulting in them now knowing Good and evil....that punishment enough. But God now adds to it by cursing Man By the swaet of thy brow shall thou eat bread" and woman "by pain in childbirth". On throughout his descendants




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2009 12:23PM by frankster.

shine

Quote:

And with regards to Adam and Eve, apparently, they obeyed the wrong being “the devil,” and God's punishment was to inflict death and suffering upon them and all their (off springs) ancestors, including such niceties as making childbirth painful for women and so on.

How is it I am now reaping the sins that Adam and Eve sowed? If God is responsible for such then God is a evil-doer.
Painful childbirth has been undone by man knowledge of painkillers, what does that say about God's evil curses?

Quote:

This is my opinion, remember God is all knowing and He knows the weakness and wickedness of our hearts. We, the off springs of Adam and Eve, are still connected to Adam’s and Eve’s frailty to the adversary, the devil, the fallen angel, who is still our midst. So God sees and understand the generation to follow will continue to fall to the devil…

Could it be because he design us with those very frailties?

Quote:

In Ephesians 6:12, Paul says, “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”
The devil’s goal is to deceive us and blind us from God’s truth and purpose for us. Ultimately, the devil wants to take as many souls with him in the lake of fire, see John 10:10.

Who made this lake of fire?
Who made the devil, and designed him with such evil capabilities?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

I understand exactly what you're asking and saying Frankster, but I can't emphasize enough, God is God. He made us in His image and gave us the opportunity to choose between right and wrong. The devil/lucifer chose to disobey God so God cast him out of heaven, so to be thrown in the lake of fire. Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, so God cast them out of the Garden of Eden and curse their offsprings. If we, today, chose to disobey God we'll suffer the same consequencies. I can't over emphasized God is God and He'll punish us for disobedience. It has nothing to do with cruelty, it's the price we'll pay for sin. The lake of fire wasn't created for us, it was created for the devil and his fallen angels. If we choose to follow the devil's path of disobedience God will surely let us die with him in the lake of fire. God is a just God. Sin has it's price. I'm not perfect and no one else for that matter, but I try not to disobey God because I fear Him very much!

shine

Quote:

I understand exactly what you're asking and saying Frankster, but I can't emphasize enough, God is God. He made us in His image and gave us the opportunity to choose between right and wrong. The devil/lucifer chose to disobey God so God cast him out of heaven, so to be thrown in the lake of fire. Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, so God cast them out of the Garden of Eden and curse their offsprings.

So because God is God that makes okay for Him to practice or use evil?
Who made this lake of fire?
In the beginning I am to suppose that we did not have any option but to obey God, in Giving us free will we now have a new option open to us, which is now we can disobey God. Now that we have excerise this option God saw it fit to punish us for so doing - something not too kosher about that scenario!
Worst yet our offspring who is innocent of Adams crime, is to be punish for Adams sin?

Quote:

If we, today, chose to disobey God we'll suffer the same consequencies. I can't over emphasized God is God and He'll punish us for disobedience. It has nothing to do with cruelty, it's the price we'll pay for sin. The lake of fire wasn't created for us, it was created for the devil and his fallen angels. If we choose to follow the devil's path of disobedience God will surely let us die with him in the lake of fire. God is a just God. Sin has it's price. I'm not perfect and no one else for that matter, but I try not to disobey God because I fear Him very much!

The choice we have been given is a sham.
Any mind that create a place like hell, must be one with a taste for cruelty.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

The questions that must be asked to begin with are, 'What is evil'? Also, what is Hell??

From my understanding of Christianity, evil is an act of rebellion against God, and by extension, Hell is a state of absence from God. Thus Heaven must be an existence in God's presence.

To be able to rebel against God one must first be aware of the distinction between good and evil. Adam and Eve's error was to have developed the awareness of sin, 'the knowledge of good and evil', and because of this they became aware of their nakedness.

The awareness of the distinction between good and evil means that we have the power of choice, which Adam and Eve acquired in the Garden of Eden. Since they now had the ability to choose between good and evil, they had to leave God's perfect existence and go where they could be influenced by the devil without God's protective environment, where there was; hunger, pain, sorrow, death, etc. As satan asked God in the Book of Job, to remove the 'hedge' from around Job, and allow him satan, to influence Job.

For Job, and other humans, to be free agents with choice, they would have to be exposed to the uncertainty, outside of the harmony of Eden, where they would be able to freely choose, with their true conscience. satan challenged God to allow him to have his way with man, according to the Book of Job, since satan asserts that God is not fair, but expects too much of mankind with his high standards, and that mankind would not serve God for nothing in return.

So, in this life, satan is allowed by God, to prove himself to be in the right, and God wrong, and mankind uses their conscientious power of choice in our journey through this cruel existence, to determine the road we travel, and whom we serve.

As we go through this journey, we sometimes find the going rough, and the choices to be difficult. God seems so far away, so unreal, so removed from our harsh reality. We need help to continue, a sign of hope, for God to draw near, and to help us by bridging the gap between his perfection, and our short-comings, the frailty of our fleshly existence.

To be continued....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2009 10:21PM by JudgeDred.

Judgedred

Quote:

The questions that must be asked to begin with are, 'What is evil'? Also, what is Hell??
From my understanding of Christianity, evil is an act of rebellion against God, and by extension, Hell is a state of absence from God. Thus Heaven must be an existence in God's presence.

Does lieing, participating in murders, and the creation of misery etc falls within your purview of what evil is - as you put "in an act of rebellion against God"

So to you the actual lake of fire, the common and popular conception of hell is non-existance,unreal, or purely figurative?

Quote:

To be able to rebel against God one must first be aware of the distinction between good and evil. Adam and Eve's error was to have developed the awareness of sin, 'the knowledge of good and evil', and because of this they became aware of their nakedness.

The "distinction" you speak of is Something they could not have been aware of until after they ate the fruit...right or wrong?

Quote:

The awareness of the distinction between good and evil means that we have the power of choice, which Adam and Eve acquired in the Garden of Eden. Since they now had the ability to choose between good and evil, they had to leave God's perfect existence and go where they could be influenced by the devil without God's protective environment, where there was; hunger, pain, sorrow, death, etc. As satan asked God in the Book of Job, to remove the 'hedge' from around Job, and allow him satan, to influence Job.

The choice is not free or real cause if you choose to anything that displeases God will result in God punishing you, for doing so.

Eating the fruit had only one result, the ability to know right from wrong - knowledge

They never left they were expelled. Not only were they expelled from eden, but God curse the ground so that life would be full of hunger, pain, sorrow, death, etc

Quote:

For Job, and other humans, to be free agents with choice, they would have to be exposed to the uncertainty, outside of the harmony of Eden, where they would be able to freely choose, with their true conscience. satan challenged God to allow him to have his way with man, according to the Book of Job, since satan asserts that God is not fair, but expects too much of mankind with his high standards, and that mankind would not serve God for nothing in return.

Come on they were expose to the serpent(satan/evil) before they left Eden.

Then Satan seems right cause most who serve God do so out of fear of hell or wanting to be allowed in paradise(heaven).
These strategies(carrot or stick) of God will not ensure genuine love of God from Man.

Satan challenges God and so they play with the life happiness and eternal future of a man?
Thats willfull capriciousness!

Quote:

So, in this life, satan is allowed by God, to prove himself to be in the right, and God wrong, and mankind uses their conscientious power of choice in our journey through this cruel existence, to determine the road we travel, and whom we serve.

So all knowing God does not know the answer to that Challenge. He must participate in an experiment with Man being the test subject.

Quote:

As we go through this journey, we sometimes find the going rough, and the choices to be difficult. God seems so far away, so unreal, so removed from our harsh reality. We need help to continue, a sign of hope, for God to draw near, and to help us by bridging the gap between his perfection, and our short-comings, the frailty of our fleshly existence.

God resides in Man, thats real close.
Your life is proof of God's reality
Every new day is a sign of hope
Harshness roughness and difficulties is a result of our ignorance

Quote:

To be continued....

I welcome your responses....




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2009 01:14PM by frankster.

Frankster said:
"The choice is not free or real cause if you choose to anything that displeases God will result in God punishing you, for doing so.

Eating the fruit had only one result, the ability to know right from wrong - knowledge

They never left they were expelled. Not only were they expelled from eden, but God curse the ground so that life would be full of hunger, pain, sorrow, death, etc."

JudgeDred:

I assume you have children, and that in order to prevent them from doing something harmful to themselves you:
1. Lay down the law...Daddy Frankster: "don't do this, or that...!!!"
2. Promise punishment...Daddy Frankster: "If I ever catch you doing 'xyz', I am going to whup your behind!!!"

Your justification for these warnings, and punishment, would be that you do not want to see harm come to them, out of love for them. Again, I assume that you are a caring parent.

Also, if your children decided that they are going to live by their own rules then I am sure you would want them to find their own 'crib'.

JudgeDred


JudgeDred:

Quote:

I assume you have children, and that in order to prevent them from doing something harmful to themselves you:
1. Lay down the law...Daddy Frankster: "don't do this, or that...!!!"
2. Promise punishment...Daddy Frankster: "If I ever catch you doing 'xyz', I am going to whup your behind!!!"

Yes I do Have children.
Yes they do's and dont's in our home.
No! I do not promise punishment, rather use loss of privileges.

Quote:

Your justification for these warnings, and punishment, would be that you do not want to see harm come to them, out of love for them. Again, I assume that you are a caring parent.

Yes I like to think of myself as a loving and caring parent.

Quote:

Also, if your children decided that they are going to live by their own rules then I am sure you would want them to find their own 'crib'.

No..It depends on the reason for their disobedience, is it out of ignorance, innocences or rebellion.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2009 09:04AM by frankster.

Frankster said:

Yes I do Have children.
Yes they do's and dont's in our home.
No! I do not promise punishment, rather use loss of privileges.

JudgeDred says:

Loss of privileges, or punishment, same difference...nuh suh.

JudgeDred says:

Quote:

Loss of privileges, or punishment, same difference...nuh suh

Not when You drawing comparisons between Me and God.

God's options are infinite, Mine is limited to what I know.
God's knowledge knows no bound. I have none in comparison.
God's experience is eternal, I am a blip in time

If YOU promise a "whuping" that implies YOU intend to inflict pain and cause bodily harm or damage leading to suffering and misery.
Some harm or damage can never be undone, privileges can always be restored.
Whilst a "loss of privilege" is more pyschological than physical. Any pain, harm, or damage resulting from the loss is Mostly SELF-INFLICTED.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2009 07:47AM by frankster.

A wonderful response Frankster and we’ll conceived. Why? Because you differentiated God’s ways vs. man’s. Like I’ve once said God’s ways aren’t ours. Even though you might conceive God’s punishment for sin as evil, it’s God’s way of dealing with rebellion or disobedience. This is why God sent Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, who bore our sin on the cross, whether present or passed sin. Jesus died for our sin, this way we wouldn’t die and deal with the harshness, terror, and the agony of hell. And above all, He loves us and He doesn’t want us to perish with the devil, instead, He wants us to be with God forever.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2009 10:00AM by shine.

Frankster said:
God's options are infinite, Mine is limited to what I know.
God's knowledge knows no bound. I have none in comparison.
God's experience is eternal, I am a blip in time

If YOU promise a "whuping" that implies YOU intend to inflict pain and cause bodily harm or damage leading to suffering and misery.
Some harm or damage can never be undone, privileges can always be restored.
Whilst a "loss of privilege" is more pyschological than physical. Any pain, harm, or damage resulting from the loss is Mostly SELF-INFLICTED.

JudgeDred says:

Some of what is promised as punishment for man's errors are the consequences of our errors, like a child playing with fire resulting in the house burning down, or an adult having promiscuous sex, resulting in a terminal disease.
God's options are infinite, but those options relate to the finite realities of mankind. We determined that we wanted to live by our own finite options, in the Garden of Eden. So God allows us to live within the limitations of this finite existence as we wish. We guide our own destiny through our choices, as we will, and want God to take a back seat. Our wisdom is what we choose to live by because we think God isn't, or shouldn't be necessary.

God allows us to follow the path of our choice, to accept or reject him, to give satan the chance to prove him wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2009 06:53AM by JudgeDred.

shine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A wonderful response Frankster and we’ll
> conceived. Why? Because you differentiated God’s
> ways vs. man’s. Like I’ve once said God’s ways
> aren’t ours. Even though you might conceive God’s
> punishment for sin as evil, it’s God’s way of
> dealing with rebellion or disobedience. This is
> why God sent Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, who
> bore our sin on the cross, whether present or
> passed sin. Jesus died for our sin, this way we
> wouldn’t die and deal with the harshness, terror,
> and the agony of hell. And above all, He loves us
> and He doesn’t want us to perish with the devil,
> instead, He wants us to be with God forever.

The difference is a matter of degree and not kind.
What death we would'nt "die"?
If he loves us and truly dosent want us to perish, he is in a position to make sure we all do not suffer. How is that different from the man who beats his wife for her own good and will swear that he loves her?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

JudgeDred

Quote:

Some of what is promised as punishment for man's errors are the consequences of our errors, like a child playing with fire resulting in the house burning down, or an adult having promiscuous sex, resulting in a terminal disease.

Are those acts of God? NO
That is understood, what I am confronting is the idea that God Punishes?
Because if he does, to me he is using evil to accomplish good, and I find the unsettling and somewhat evil.

Quote:

God's options are infinite, but those options relate to the finite realities of mankind.
We determined that we wanted to live by our own finite options, in the Garden of Eden. So God allows us to live within the limitations of this finite existence as we wish.

Even so God has in the past done and allowed miracles, which is in no way a regular feature of our finite reality - That shows that God infinite abilities are in no way limited by our realities.

Quote:

We guide our own destiny through our choices, as we will, and want God to take a back seat. Our wisdom is what we choose to live by because we think God isn't, or shouldn't be necessary.

I agree we guide our destiny through our choices.
God in the back seat - I do not think so.

Quote:

God allows us to follow the path of our choice, to accept or reject him, to give satan the chance to prove him wrong.

Why is our choice synonymus with satan?
Can we make a choice or decision that is neither of God or satan?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2009 09:26PM by frankster.

Frankster if you think about what you said:

“If he loves us and truly doesn’t want us to perish, he is in a position to make sure we all do not suffer.”

You see, God is doing just exactly that, every second that passes. To begin with, He did so with Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. He's also doing so by influencing us to make the right decision…the decision I’m talking about is making Jesus our Lord and Saviour (this way we’ll not face such suffering you are talking about). It is up to us to take our blind folds off and heed to His warnings and teachings. But, at times, we cannot receive such warnings, because we are too caught up with the cares of this world, ourselves, or lack of knowledge about God's truth.

So Frankster, I will give a different interpretation of your quote “if we truly love ourselves and we don’t want to perish, we are in the position to save ourselves from suffering through Jesus Christ.” How? By, in faith, not works, accepting God as our Lord and Saviour on the cross and confessing our sins to Him. Then, and only then, can we escape such suffering.

Since a child I’ve heard and now understand "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16.

And Romans 5:8 exemplifies His love for us "But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

And to give evidence of how blinded we are, at times, Isaiah 59:2 says "But your sins have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear."

And above all, Romans 10:9 says "That if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Which ultimately leads to “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast?" Ephesians 2:8, 9



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2009 08:52PM by shine.

I haven't been around here for a while and this is a rather inauspicious reintroduction, with my new login and such. ( I forgot to the old one). With all this claims about God, all those who speak as if the are privy to facts that the rest of mankind does not have, do you ever stop to think about how ridiculous your claims about "God" is. I mean any "God" now just the one who the fairy tale called the bible speaks about. Before you make claims based on belief, just do some research about the origin of the bible, it was made up by some Jews as an exclusive religion. All the claims of "miracles" by jesus was borrowed from other religions around the same time. its a a bunch nonsense. The new testament is very poetic and you an take things away from it that are of positive application even today. But please, religion is made up stuff. It does not matter how much you want it to be true, if it's not true, it's not true. It does not matter how many people believe it, if it's not true, that does not make it true. Religious rituals are just that rituals. And stop getting on people for not believing something because you believe it. If it's not true, does not matter hour hard you cry at nights, and weep in church, it's just not true.

kids bedding, bedding for kids, girl bedding, boys bedding



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2009 09:25AM by liftalee.

God created the universe and all that lies within, what is of God is perfect, and a glorification of God. God allowed satan and his demons to rebel against himself, and his creation, mainly to allow his creation to have free will, and to accept, or reject, him according to their free will. The consequence of this rebellion is that the devil tries to create an existence without God, because he claims that himself and his demons can be as God, thus hell is the absence of God, in that part of creation that God has reserved exclusively for satan and his followers.

The devil is not able to create the perfection that is of God, and the existence that the devil promises is a perversion of God's creation. Jesus' ministry on earth was an example of God's perfectness: no hunger (only cornucopia); no illnesses; death's sting removed; deformities made whole; perfect judgement (the alleged adulterer who was brought alone to be served judgement without regard to the fact that she needed an accomplice to commit adultery was set free); the love of God (agape).

From the time of the Garden of Eden when man was tempted to ignore God's perfection, and to follow his own glory, man has tried over and over to create a perfect existence through his own governance: meeting the needs of hunger in the world; curing and preventing illnesses; undoing deformities; and implementing perfect (or blind) justice. In all attempts we have failed to be perfect, and human society is littered with failures, and shortcomings. The anti-christ, according to prophecy, will attempt to create perfect governance, as a last ditch effort by the devil ("falling down to the earth as a bolt of lightning with great fury, knowing his time is short..."), and will be able to make some success particularly in devising an economic system that will provide wealth, and leave those excluded (by their belief) in dire poverty. The anti-christ will also be able to bring about a measure of peace (since his is the Third Roman Empire one could speculate on a sort of Pax Europa, or something similar), "placing his tents in the beautiful land (Israel)...." At the end, the anti-christ will fail miserably, and bring the world to the brink of annihilation (the battle at Megiddo), save for the intervention of Jesus the Christ.

**********************************************************************************************************
(To liftalee:
The bible is a very accurate historical record, none of the events described therein have ever been proven to have not occurred, and the events described are similar to what was recorded elsewhere concerning facts of each era. No prophecy written in the bible has ever been proven wrong, and have yet to be proven to be mere fable. The bible described the universe as a void, which scientists now accept as a fact, i.e. there is mostly empty space making up the universe. The bible references that the stars in the sky are more numerous than the grains of sand making up a beach...this has been proven to be mathematically accurate. How did the writers of the bible know to describe the universe long before the knowledge we now have by means of space exploration ???
**********************************************************************************************************

Feel free to follow your conscience, a loving God wishes you would heed him, but he also does not want people to have consciences shackled by the non-existence of choice, or alternatives to his perfection.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2009 09:08PM by JudgeDred.

shine

ooops sorry!




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2009 07:48AM by frankster.

shine

Quote:

Frankster if you think about what you said:
“If he loves us and truly doesn’t want us to perish, he is in a position to make sure we all do not suffer.”

You see, God is doing just exactly that, every second that passes. To begin with, He did so with Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. He's also doing so by influencing us to make the right decision…the decision I’m talking about is making Jesus our Lord and Saviour (this way we’ll not face such suffering you are talking about). It is up to us to take our blind folds off and heed to His warnings and teachings. But, at times, we cannot receive such warnings, because we are too caught up with the cares of this world, ourselves, or lack of knowledge about God's truth.

Do Christians suffer pain?
Jesus death has not stopped suffering?

Quote:

So Frankster, I will give a different interpretation of your quote “if we truly love ourselves and we don’t want to perish, we are in the position to save ourselves from suffering through Jesus Christ.” How? By, in faith, not works, accepting God as our Lord and Saviour on the cross and confessing our sins to Him. Then, and only then, can we escape such suffering.

For 2000yrs a significant sector of humanity called Christians has been doing so, and they have proven no better a alleviating human pain and suffering than any other group. In fact they have been the purveyors of misery.

Quote:

Since a child I’ve heard and now understand "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16.

Are we then no longer responsible for our actions?
Do we no longer feel the searing heat , as our flesh burns when we touch hot surfaces?
Do these words of God no longer apply?

Quote:

Eze 18:20 -
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Below you propose a remedy, based on scripture but riddled with dogma.

Quote:

And Romans 5:8 exemplifies His love for us "But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
And to give evidence of how blinded we are, at times, Isaiah 59:2 says "But your sins have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear."

And above all, Romans 10:9 says "That if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Which ultimately leads to “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast?" Ephesians 2:8, 9

Isaiah 59 is a powerful chapter one well worth the read.
Christ Lived for us sinners, as a physicians tends the sick.
Yes some of us are blind.

No!..... one should NOT boast of the good works they do, But one MUST do them, for it is righteous and ONLY the Righteous shall be Saved.
It is only right that one should boast of God for it is His doings/biddings that you do and not your own. So confess openly and loudly with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe/know that God has arisen Him in your Heart.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2009 07:44AM by frankster.