Check out the following and tell me your thoughts

Amos 3:6
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Jud 9:23 -
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

2Ch 18:22 -
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2009 04:48PM by frankster.

frankster, if, as it is said, God created everything, then would that not include evil too?
looking at it from the duality of all things - if there was not one, how could there be the other?
any action will set in motion repercussions. can the repercussion from the reaction of the subsequent be blamed on the first action?
for example: you do a kindness, the next sees it and is bitter that an undeserved is recipient so the next does an unkindness. are you the cause of that evil?
there is so much misunderstanding perpetuated by giving human/finite qualities to that which has no begining or end, length nor breadth, time or space, you get the drift.

So in short Raslisa you are saying that God is an evil doer?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

frankster, i find it so hard to reason with people who only deal with literals.

God is not "a one" god is every one and no one. as such, god cannot "do" either evil or good but the choice is there for either to be manifest.(I love the shakespeare line "there's nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.")

great answer.....
The implications are mind shifting

"there's nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."
but why is this truth?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2009 12:57AM by frankster.

It's impossible for God to be evil or do evil. He doesn't have the same nature as the devil, "whose intention is to deceive and take as many souls with him into the lake of fire on the day of judgment...the devil does so by killing, stealing, and destroying people's hope and purpose for God/Christ." God is more about love, peace, and prosperity. Now, you must understand God will put a licking on disobedient souls/people. Furthermore, he can allow the devil to have his way with some people. Why? So to bring about a greater good out of a person or their situation. This outcome will ultimately lead to honor, praise, and glory to the Lord Himself. God loves every single soul on earth. He's so patient with us. You'll have to run over God before he chooses to kill us and send us to a burning place. Evil is not God's nature, however, His fury, due to our lack of obedience, must be feared!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2009 02:37PM by shine.

shine Wrote:
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> It's impossible for God to be evil or do evil. He
> doesn't have the same nature as the devil, "whose
> intention is to deceive and take as many souls
> with him into the lake of fire on the day of
> judgment...the devil does so by killing, stealing,
> and destroying people's hope and purpose for
> God/Christ." God is more about love, peace, and
> prosperity. Now, you must understand God will put
> a licking on disobedient souls/people.
> Furthermore, he can allow the devil to have his
> way with some people. Why? So to bring about a
> greater good out of a person or their situation.
> This outcome will ultimately lead to honor,
> praise, and glory to the Lord Himself. God loves
> every single soul on earth. He's so patient with
> us. You'll have to run over God before he chooses
> to kill us and send us to a burning place. Evil
> is not God's nature, however, His fury, due to our
> lack of obedience, must be feared!


Shine

Are'nt you ignoring the fact that the bible states that God says he creates evil?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

Frankster I think you are missing the point of the creation of evil. When you are talking about evil you have to understand evil is a sin, which is an act against God Himself. How can God commit an act against Himself? You see, the evil of which God was referring to are the evils of afflictions and punishments. These are two different contexts which should not confused. God cannot commit an act against Himself. Furthermore, affiliations and punishment are direct results of God’s judgment towards disobedience. For instance, death/hell/torment before the Final Day of Judgement or destruction and poverty on earth are God’s creation of fierce afflictions and punishments towards sin/wickedness/rebelliousness/evil. Some question God’s afflictions and punishments, why? Because they think a Loving God shouldn’t or couldn't be so harsh. But God answers to no man on any of His decisions or rulings! It’s the same point He was declaring in Isaiah. He’s sovereign and He’s in control over everything.

If we don’t obey Him and worship Him, vs. our selfish desires, we’ll pay the price of His evil creation, affliction and punishment.

God created us to worship Him. He'll always be with us.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2009 09:39AM by shine.

Franster I did answer your question about the Creation of Evil. But evidently it disappeared overnight. Not sure if it got deleted. Nonetheless, before this gets deleted, let me reiterate, you're confusing evil as in sinning and evil as in affliction and punishment. Evil is an act of sin, which is against God Himself. How can God create sin against Himself? Which leads to affliction and punishment, which is God’s just way of. Sin leads to death. Whether on earth or in the afer-life, God repay disobedience justly with affliction and punishment. The creation of evil, by God, is His ultimate way of dealing with rebellious souls. In Isaiah God was declaring His power and control over everything. He’s Loving, Sovereign, and feared. God cannot create or commit sin. I had summed it up better in my previous post, but I guess, somehow it got deleted. And I know I posted it, because I saw post time of 0107am 4/16.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2009 06:10PM by shine.

shine Wrote:
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Quote:

Frankster I think you are missing the point of the creation of evil. When you are talking about evil you have to understand evil is a sin, which is an act against God Himself. How can God commit an act against Himself?

No.. evil is anything that causes suffering, misery and is unbeneficial(spiteful).
A sin is a transgression of Gods laws, commands or rules.
Though similiar they are not always the same

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You see, the evil of which God was referring to are the evils of afflictions and punishments.

Yes.

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These are two different contexts which should not confused. God cannot commit an act against Himself. Furthermore, affiliations and punishment are direct results of God’s judgment towards disobedience. For instance, death/hell/torment before the Final Day of Judgement or destruction and poverty on earth are God’s creation of fierce afflictions and punishments towards sin/wickedness/rebelliousness/evil. Some question God’s afflictions and punishments, why? Because they think a Loving God shouldn’t or couldn't be so harsh. But God answers to no man on any of His decisions or rulings! It’s the same point He was declaring in Isaiah. He’s sovereign and He’s in control over everything.

If God sends vile afflictions as punishment then how can you deny that his actions are evil?
He being sovereign is no justification, for cruelty.

Quote:

If we don’t obey Him and worship Him, vs. our selfish desires, we’ll pay the price of His evil creation, affliction and punishment.

Then he is evil...as he is practicing or upholding the old law of an eye for an eye. The Idea of repaying evil with evil was repudiated by Jesus.

Quote:

Franster I did answer your question about the
Creation of Evil. But evidently it disappeared
overnight. Not sure if it got deleted.

Yes that tends to happen.

Quote:

Nonetheless, before this gets deleted, let me
reiterate, you're confusing evil as in sinning
and evil as in affliction and punishment.

If someone or thing causes someone I love or myself to suffer that to me is evil.

Quote:

Evil is an act of sin, which is against God Himself. How
can God create sin against Himself? Which leads to
affliction and punishment, which is God’s just way
of. Sin leads to death.

How can God create sin against himself - Lucifer
Is there something God cannot do - omnipotence.
No doubt sin leads to death....but who or what makes that so?

Quote:

Whether on earth or in
the afer-life, God repay disobedience justly with
affliction and punishment. The creation of evil,
by God, is His ultimate way of dealing with
rebellious souls.

Gods repays disobedience with evil - then God is an evil doer?

Quote:

In Isaiah God was declaring His
power and control over everything. He’s Loving,
Sovereign, and feared. God cannot create or
commit sin. I had summed it up better in my
previous post, but I guess, somehow it got
deleted. And I know I posted it, because I saw
post time of 0107am 4/16.

My point is you cannot be all love while doling out evil as punishment to those who displeases you, then claim to have bestow free-will on your human subjects - its a farce




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

No Frankster, you missing the whole point again. You have to understand that God punishes those who don't worship Him. We are created to worship Him and obey His word. For instance, when a parent punishes his or her child are they being evil? No! Parents set rules and if they are broken they will face some sort of punishment. Same principle of God, who is the creator of all on earth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2009 02:21AM by shine.

Shine

Quote:

No Frankster, you missing the whole point again. You have to understand that God punishes those who don't worship Him. We are created to worship Him and obey His word.

I understand you perfectly you are saying that God only PUNISHES us when we do not worship or obey Him.

Quote:

For instance, when a parent punishes his or her child are they being evil? No!

Sometimes....they are being evil either out of spite(with malice) or ignorance(unintentional)

Quote:

Parents set rules and if they are broken they will face some sort of punishment. Same principle of God, who is the creator of all on earth.

Granted.

But we are like babes in the sight of God, Would you allow your children to do wrong, so as to have a rational for flogging them? and if so why is'nt that evil?
And if you have given them free-will why punish them when they use it?




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

I can’t think of one thing that’s free…there’s a price for everything . Rules/laws are made to protect, save lives, or to maintain order. Anyone who violates rules or laws is normally reprimanded. If a child is making poor choices, resulting in harm or hurt to him/herself or others, would you forsake the child to his/her own freewill or would you steer him right by all loving means? It’s not evil to steer a person in the right direction. The average loving and caring parent will always want to see their child make the right decisions, resulting in fruitfulness in life. God’s guidance/commandments are base on the same principle of love and care for us…He wants the best for you and I.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2009 04:04PM by shine.

Shine

Quote:

can’t think of one thing that’s free…there’s a price for everything .

The Air we breathe.....is still free.

Quote:

Rules/laws are made to protect, save lives, or to maintain order. Anyone who violates rules or laws is normally reprimanded. If a child is making poor choices, resulting in harm or hurt to him/herself or others, would you forsake the child to his/her own freewill or would you steer him right by all loving means?

By only all loving means....\
To punish(as in causeing pain and or suffering) is to do and BEcome evil

Quote:

It’s not evil to steer a person in the right direction. The average loving and caring parent will always want to see their child make the right decisions, resulting in fruitfulness in life. God’s guidance/commandments are base on the same principle of love and care for us…He wants the best for you and I.

No it is not evil to steer a person in the right direction.
But it is evil to inflict pain and cause suffering and misery.
When you inflict pain love is absent. Whenever a parent inficts pain on their children it is usually as a result of ignorance, out of frustration and or lack of a better alternative.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

Frankster, suffering and misery, by God, is a result of sin (disobedience). Sin, like I said before is an act against God. Sin is a result of us not heeding to God’s word/commandments, which leads to us paying the price for our free-will to disobey Him. Note, sin leads to misery, chaos, destruction, and ultimately death. For instance, if you tell your child “don’t touch the stove because it’s hot.” But the child decides to touch the stove (because in his own wisdom he doesn’t see or feel heat coming from the stove), so he touches the stove and gets a 3 degree burn. Question, with the child’s agony, discomfort, and regret, whose fault is it? A warning was given, but it was ignored and a price was paid in agony. Same principle used by God. Listen or pay the price of your own decision…like my mom would say “whoooo caaahhh eeaarrrr willll feeel! Parents guide and protect through warnings…same principle exercised by your Heavenly Father.

shine

[quote]Frankster, suffering and misery, by God, is a result of sin (disobedience). Sin, like I said before is an act against God. Sin is a result of us not heeding to God’s word/commandments, which leads to us paying the price for our free-will to disobey Him. Note, sin leads to misery, chaos, destruction, and ultimately death. For instance, if you tell your child “don’t touch the stove because it’s hot.” But the child decides to touch the stove (because in his own wisdom he doesn’t see or feel heat coming from the stove), so he touches the stove and gets a 3 degree burn. Question, with the child’s agony, discomfort, and regret, whose fault is it? A warning was given, but it was ignored and a price was paid in agony. Same principle used by God. Listen or pay the price of your own decision…like my mom would say “whoooo caaahhh eeaarrrr willll feeel! Parents guide and protect through warnings…same principle exercised by your Heavenly Father.


Precisely !

WHO is to blame?-IGNORANCE
GOD DOES NOT INFLICT PUNISHMENT

THATS PRINCIPLE in action - In other words the SIN is its own punishment. There is no need for God to inflict punishment - That is like further punishing the child atop of the third degree burns????? which is an evil thing to do.

So suffering and misery is not a result of "Sin" but "IGNORANCE"

Wait a sec, how's that evil if the child decided to touch the stove after being told not to? The child was warned. Had that child listend would there be 3rd degree burn or pain and suffering? The pain and suffering is a result of not heeding to the warning. God doesn't lead us into a evil trap and then punishes us on top of it, we do it to ourselves. For instance, God told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple, but what they did, they ate it! God in return curse them and all man kind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2009 07:26AM by shine.

shine

Quote:

Wait a sec, how's that evil if the child decided to touch the stove after being told not to? The child was warned. Had that child listend would there be 3rd degree burn or pain and suffering? The pain and suffering is a result of not heeding to the warning.

The evil is not in the pain the child feels or experiences as a result of his/her actions, the evil is in God further(in addition to) punishing the child after it has 3rd degree burns. THE SIN IS ITS OWN PUNISHMENT.

Quote:

God doesn't lead us into a evil trap and then punishes us on top of it, we do it to ourselves. For instance, God told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple, but what they did, they ate it! God in return curse them and all man kind.

Thats my point why did he have to curse them? Isnt the fact that the ate the fruit punishment enough. The child who touch the hot stove and experience the searing pain of her burnt flesh, needs no further punishment from God or anyone.

And why punish Adam & Eve's descendants who had nothing to do with it.




candid ,direct ,fortright , openminded ,standup ,staightforward ,unreserved ,bold ,brazen and , uninhibited , take-no-prison ,breakdown walls , setting free .

Say what? What do you mean by “the evil is in God further(in addition to) punishing the child after it has 3rd degree burns.?” After the warning was given and the child got burnt, due to his own negligence to listen, what other action did the Warner /God take? Moreover, are you saying the child should be able to be negligent/disobedient and have the Warner/God undo the consequences of touching the hot surface of the stove?

God is a just God; God is a holy God. Sin has to be paid for. Either Jesus pays for our sin or we reject Him and end up having to pay for our own sin. It’s not punishment; it’s simply the harvest of the seeds that we sow. Every wrong action is going to merit a consequence. That is just the way life is; that is the way that God set up justice and righteousness.

On the day of the Great Throne Judgment, the second death in (Revelation 20:11-14), God will forever deal with disobedience and rebellion to His will. It’s our choice/free-will to obey/disobey His gospel/commandments to us; the choice is death or life. I’ve chosen life. We’ve been warned of the consequences of disobedience. Above all, God doesn’t tempt us to do evil so He can trap us into sin; “James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”

Please ensure to answer my question as to how “God further(in addition to) punishing the child after it has 3rd degree burns.?” How was the child further punished? Because nothing was said that the Warner/God went over and devilishly inflicted more punishment, besides than the child’s (”us”) own pain/suffering (price) for not obeying. What else could the Warner do or say to the warnee?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2009 12:54PM by shine.